[O] Agenda in MobileOrg for Android

[mobileorg-android]

Dnia 2013-04-08, o godz. 11:28:47

Dnia 2013-04-08, o godz. 06:52:02

As it happens, one of the lead developers of mobileorg started a
thread on the MobileOrg-Android mailing list asking for issues that
need to be addressed, and features that are needed, before it's
ready for 1.0.

Well, I didn't know about the existence of that list;).

OK, so I'm reviving this old thread.

I tried to set up MobileOrg again and failed completely - again. Sorry
for my post being a bit harsh, but I'm really frustrated with this
situation, especially that I hear people claiming it works for them...

1. I am still not convinced about the pros of all the "sync" stuff (as
opposed to relying on e.g. Dropbox to sync the files), since it just
Doesn't Work For Me, period. I try to edit something on my phone
("capture"), I can see my edits there, I click the "sync" icon on the
phone, wait for Dropbox on my computer to catch up, see the relevant
entry in my mobileorg.org file, then do an org-mobile-pull, and it just
doesn't work: my captured item doesn't appear *anywhere* (I grepped all
my org directory as well as the Dropbox sync directory), though it
claimed "0 new, 1 edits, 0 flags, 0 errors" (once it was "1 error",
don't know why). Pushing seems to work (most of the time - sometimes I
had to "reset the database" on the phone).

For the record: I have Org-mode 7.8.02 and these MobileOrg-related
settings in my .emacs:

(setq org-mobile-directory "~/Dropbox/MobileOrg")
(setq org-mobile-inbox-for-pull "~/org/mobileorg-inbox.org")

I also have some tags-related settings, but I guess they don't matter
in the situation where capturing (even without tags) doesn't work at
all.

2. Maybe I'm strange, but the UI seems to be really, really terrible
to me; but I can see no point describing the exact meaning of
"terrible" here (I have a clear understanding of what I dislike and
what I would like) since at my side, MobileOrg is just a poor UI without
a working app beneath anyway. When it starts working for me, I'll be
happy to write an email about what I perceive are UI problems.

I find that creating new nodes and minor editing of existing ones is
not at all inconvenient. I don't see a big issue for the workflows
that Marcin subsequently identified as being critical for this kind
of app. They're already there.

As I've written above - for me, basically there's almost *nothing*
there (without capture, MobileOrg doesn't make much sense to me).
Still, I don't want to leave a one-star review, but... it just doesn't
work and I have no idea why. (Also, subscribing to the mailing list
was nontrivial using a non-google account - it might be a good idea
to explain how to do that somewhere in the docs.)

hjh

I'm still hoping that I *will* be able to use MobileOrg some
day... For now, it looks like a complete crap from my side, though I
can't believe it is the case - it must be something wrong with my setup
(or maybe my phone - I have a Samsung Galaxy Mini 2), since obviously it
seems to work for other people.

Best,
--
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Adam Mickiewicz University

[Matthew Jones via mobileorg-android]

Post by mobileorg-android
OK, so I'm reviving this old thread.
I tried to set up MobileOrg again and failed completely - again. Sorry
for my post being a bit harsh, but I'm really frustrated with this
situation, especially that I hear people claiming it works for them...
1. I am still not convinced about the pros of all the "sync" stuff (as
opposed to relying on e.g. Dropbox to sync the files), since it just
Doesn't Work For Me, period. I try to edit something on my phone
("capture"), I can see my edits there, I click the "sync" icon on the
phone, wait for Dropbox on my computer to catch up, see the relevant
entry in my mobileorg.org file, then do an org-mobile-pull, and it just
doesn't work: my captured item doesn't appear *anywhere* (I grepped all
my org directory as well as the Dropbox sync directory), though it
claimed "0 new, 1 edits, 0 flags, 0 errors" (once it was "1 error",
don't know why). Pushing seems to work (most of the time - sometimes I
had to "reset the database" on the phone).

I've tried in the past to explain the sync stuff before. This is pretty
much the way it has to be. The org-mobile-* sync mechanism existed before
I started this project. Keeping emacs and a mobile device in sync is an
appreciably hard problem to solve. You can't just change files out from
under emacs on the filesystem, and you have to be able to properly handle
conflicts when both locations have been edited. If you have a better
solution for this on the emacs side of things it would make us very happy
and we would probably fall all over ourselves to implement it.

The original solution to this is to have a staging file which is normally
called from-mobileorg.org and you have changed to mobileorg-inbox.org.
MobileOrg writes this file with deltas... emacs pulls it down and attempts
to resolve the items we have edited or just leaves the file there if there
are new entries if you have no refile preference. If it was able to
resolve the entry we have changed then it removes that section of the file.
If you only had edits in the file this would probably leave an empty
buffer/file.

Now... just to be clear. There are two things you can do from the app.
You can edit an existing node or you can create a new node. You said
this: "I try to edit something on my phone ("capture"), I can see my edits
there". Are you capturing or editing? It seems like you are saying you
edited something because you said you see your edits there but then you
wondered why you didn't see a captured item but if you've just edited an
item then emacs will update the item you edited in-place (if you have the
buffer open it will update the buffer with the change). Emacs even tells
you this: "0 new, 1 edits, 0 flags, 0 errors". To me it looks like you
edited something so there isn't any new content. It will just update
whatever you have changed.

It would help if you could show us the contents of the deltas file that
MobileOrg generates and then let us compare it to the line you are editing.
Just to be clear... if you capture something then we put it in that file
and emacs will likely leave it in your inbox file which, as I said
before... would normally be "from-mobileorg.org" but you have renamed to
"~/org/mobileorg-inbox.org". If you edit something and then pull it into
emacs then org-mode in emacs will attempt to update the file and node you
edited in-place. If you see an error then usually that means that emacs
couldn't resolve the node that you wanted to edit or there was a competing
change that prevented it from merging. If there is an error then org-mode
will leave the edit untouched in your inbox file.

Post by mobileorg-android
2. Maybe I'm strange, but the UI seems to be really, really terrible
to me; but I can see no point describing the exact meaning of
"terrible" here (I have a clear understanding of what I dislike and
what I would like) since at my side, MobileOrg is just a poor UI without
a working app beneath anyway. When it starts working for me, I'll be
happy to write an email about what I perceive are UI problems.

Gee, thanks.

[Matthew Jones via mobileorg-android]

Also... note that you are running a fairly out of date version of org-mode.
The current version is 8.02 iirc.... so if the issue is on the
emacs/org-mode side then it could fix itself if you upgrade.

Post by mobileorg-android
OK, so I'm reviving this old thread.

Post by mobileorg-android
I tried to set up MobileOrg again and failed completely - again. Sorry
for my post being a bit harsh, but I'm really frustrated with this
situation, especially that I hear people claiming it works for them...
1. I am still not convinced about the pros of all the "sync" stuff (as
opposed to relying on e.g. Dropbox to sync the files), since it just
Doesn't Work For Me, period. I try to edit something on my phone
("capture"), I can see my edits there, I click the "sync" icon on the
phone, wait for Dropbox on my computer to catch up, see the relevant
entry in my mobileorg.org file, then do an org-mobile-pull, and it just
doesn't work: my captured item doesn't appear *anywhere* (I grepped all
my org directory as well as the Dropbox sync directory), though it
claimed "0 new, 1 edits, 0 flags, 0 errors" (once it was "1 error",
don't know why). Pushing seems to work (most of the time - sometimes I
had to "reset the database" on the phone).

I've tried in the past to explain the sync stuff before. This is pretty
much the way it has to be. The org-mobile-* sync mechanism existed before
I started this project. Keeping emacs and a mobile device in sync is an
appreciably hard problem to solve. You can't just change files out from
under emacs on the filesystem, and you have to be able to properly handle
conflicts when both locations have been edited. If you have a better
solution for this on the emacs side of things it would make us very happy
and we would probably fall all over ourselves to implement it.
The original solution to this is to have a staging file which is normally
called from-mobileorg.org and you have changed to mobileorg-inbox.org.
MobileOrg writes this file with deltas... emacs pulls it down and attempts
to resolve the items we have edited or just leaves the file there if there
are new entries if you have no refile preference. If it was able to
resolve the entry we have changed then it removes that section of the file.
If you only had edits in the file this would probably leave an empty
buffer/file.
Now... just to be clear. There are two things you can do from the app.
You can edit an existing node or you can create a new node. You said
this: "I try to edit something on my phone ("capture"), I can see my edits
there". Are you capturing or editing? It seems like you are saying you
edited something because you said you see your edits there but then you
wondered why you didn't see a captured item but if you've just edited an
item then emacs will update the item you edited in-place (if you have the
buffer open it will update the buffer with the change). Emacs even tells
you this: "0 new, 1 edits, 0 flags, 0 errors". To me it looks like you
edited something so there isn't any new content. It will just update
whatever you have changed.
It would help if you could show us the contents of the deltas file that
MobileOrg generates and then let us compare it to the line you are editing.
Just to be clear... if you capture something then we put it in that file
and emacs will likely leave it in your inbox file which, as I said
before... would normally be "from-mobileorg.org" but you have renamed to
"~/org/mobileorg-inbox.org". If you edit something and then pull it into
emacs then org-mode in emacs will attempt to update the file and node you
edited in-place. If you see an error then usually that means that emacs
couldn't resolve the node that you wanted to edit or there was a competing
change that prevented it from merging. If there is an error then org-mode
will leave the edit untouched in your inbox file.

Post by mobileorg-android
2. Maybe I'm strange, but the UI seems to be really, really terrible
to me; but I can see no point describing the exact meaning of
"terrible" here (I have a clear understanding of what I dislike and
what I would like) since at my side, MobileOrg is just a poor UI without
a working app beneath anyway. When it starts working for me, I'll be
happy to write an email about what I perceive are UI problems.

Gee, thanks.

[mobileorg-android on behalf of hjh]

On May 12, 2013 10:55 AM, "Matthew Jones via mobileorg-android" <

Keeping emacs and a mobile device in sync is an appreciably hard problem

to solve. You can't just change files out from under emacs on the
filesystem, and you have to be able to properly handle conflicts when both
locations have been edited.

Yup.

Now... just to be clear. There are two things you can do from the app.

You can edit an existing node or you can create a new node. You said
this: "I try to edit something on my phone ("capture"), I can see my edits
there". Are you capturing or editing? It seems like you are saying you
edited something because you said you see your edits there but then you
wondered why you didn't see a captured item but if you've just edited an
item then emacs will update the item you edited in-place (if you have the
buffer open it will update the buffer with the change). Emacs even tells
you this: "0 new, 1 edits, 0 flags, 0 errors".

In recent versions of MobileOrg + recent org-mode, you can add a new node
underneath an existing node. Org-mobile-pull counts this as an edit, not a
"new." It's only "new" if you add it into Captures. Probably this should be
fixed in org-mode.

It would help if you could show us the contents of the deltas file that

MobileOrg generates and then let us compare it to the line you are editing.
Just to be clear... if you capture something then we put it in that file
and emacs will likely leave it in your inbox file which, as I said
before... would normally be "from-mobileorg.org" but you have renamed to
"~/org/mobileorg-inbox.org".

Reading the original message, I was confused how this rename would work. I
don't see a setting in MobileOrg to write the deltas into any file other
than from-mobileorg.org. If org in emacs is looking for a different
filename, then I'm not clear how any edits would happen at all. But,
clearly something did...

Anyway, I agree with Matthew. Make a backup copy of the inbox before
pulling. Then it's possible to compare what MobileOrg thought would happen
vs what org-mode actually did.

hjh

[mobileorg-android]

OK,

so first of all: I am really, really sorry for my previous post. I
changed my signature (for this list only) accordingly; please tell me
when I can increase the second counter. I really /do/ want to use and
like MobileOrg, and after spending some 6-8 hours on two approaches to
configure it and get it to work, I was really upset. Knowing that the
problem is most probably on my side didn't help me...

Now more seriously.

1. I do understand the issues with plain file editing as opposed to
sync. For /my/ purposes, I would be willing to accept the simpler
model (and the risk of messing up) and try to remember not to be
naughty and not to create editing conflicts with myself on the laptop
and phone, though I understand that this is probably a bad idea. OTOH,
I'm afraid that the syncing idea doesn't eliminate it completely,
though (or I don't understand it after all). Imagine the following
scenario:

- I capture/edit something on my phone;
- I sync on the mobile phone;
- I org-mobile-pull on my computer;
- I forget to sync on my phone and capture something else.

Do I understand correctly that hilarity of editing conflicts, double
edits etc. ensues then?

Obviously, I don't have a better solution, but I think I might help
with editing the wiki so that others can better see the /need/ for the
syncing stuff. This is one place I could probably help.

2. My biggest problem, though, is that org-mobile-pull doesn't work. I
tried capturing and clocking in two things on my phone, both in
"capture.org" file, then syncing (on the phone) and then pulling at my
computer's side. I got a message saying "org-mobile-pull: Wrong type
argument: char-or-string-p, nil". Here is my mobileorg.org file from
before this error - after it, it was empty (!). (I nil'd the
org-mobile-inbox-for-pull variable - I saw it somewhere in the docs,
saw it was nil in my Emacs and thought that I should set it
to /something/; my fault, I should have started with grepping Org-mode
sources for that):

---------------- cut here ----------------
* F(edit:addheading) [[olp:capture.org][capture.org]]
** Old value

** New value
Test capture
Here is a test.
** End of edit

* F(edit:body) [[olp:capture.org:Test capture][Test capture]]
** Old value
Here is a test.
** New value
:LOGBOOK:
CLOCK: [2013-05-12 niedz. 15:00]--[2013-05-12 niedz. 15:02] => 0:02
:END:
Here is a test.
** End of edit

* F(edit:addheading) [[olp:capture.org][capture.org]]
** Old value

** New value
Test number two
Second test
** End of edit

* F(edit:body) [[olp:capture.org:Test number two][Test number two]]
** Old value
Second test
** New value
:LOGBOOK:
CLOCK: [2013-05-12 niedz. 15:04]--[2013-05-12 niedz. 15:04] => 0:00
:END:
Second test
** End of edit

* F(edit:body) [[olp:capture.org:Test number two][Test number two]]
** Old value
Second test
** New value
:LOGBOOK:
CLOCK: [2013-05-12 niedz. 15:04]--[2013-05-12 niedz. 15:04] => 0:00
:END:
Second test
** End of edit
---------------- cut here ----------------

I know my version of Org-mode is not very up-to-date - I still use
Ubuntu 12.04 and Emacs 23.3.1 shipped with it (and Org-mode from that
Emacs version). I don't think /this/ is the problem, since apparently
the syncing stuff is not very new, but if it's needed, I'll try to
upgrade (though it might as well be in a few days as in a few weeks -
I'll have to upgrade my OS, probably install a newer Emacs than in
Ubuntu repos and then download and install Org-mode - it's a whole
afternoon's job...)


3. As for my problems with the UI: I admit that "terrible" is way too
strong a word, sorry again. But still, there are a few things I
dislike.

- One of them is the capturing/editing distinction: so do I get it
right that /capturing/ just leaves stuff in the "inbox" file
and /editing/ tries to "merge" it in the right place? I couldn't
find anything about it in the docs. (Also, after a short test I can
see that the captured thing seems to land in one of the files I
choose, not the "inbox".)

- Another one is with clocking: I need one "long click" and two normal
ones to clock in to something; isn't it one click too many? It seems
that clocking should be /fast/, I guess it's overly complicated now.
Also, clocking in to something while another thing is being clocked
seems to cancel the other clock; shouldn't it at least issue a
warning?

- Yet another is with editing/capturing again: while I'm editing the
body of the node, seemingly I have to click the diskette icon to exit
the editing field; it would be more natural if a click outside the
field were enough.

- Also, there are some strange lines between the file and node names
and the body. They look like empty (and a few pixels high)
placeholders for deeper-level nodes, and they look strange.

- This is not exactly UI, but when starting MobileOrg, there is an
animated circle icon, looking as if something was refreshed or
something like that. It won't stop until I press the "Sync" button.

These might be considered minor complaints, but these are things I'd
want to do many, many times a day, so e.g. one click more when clocking
in bothers me.


4. Since my goal now is to gain rep on this list and level up a bit;),
I'd like to ask whether I could help somehow with the development of
MobileOrg. I don't know Java (yet), but I'm learning it (and I'll be
experimenting with Android apps soon), so if there are some e.g. simple
but boring tasks a newbie can do (and not easily break something;)), I'd
be willing to participate.

Best regards,

--
Marcin Borkowski
:PROPERTIES:
:experience: 10
:reputation: -100
:level: asshole
:END:

[mobileorg-android on behalf of hjh]

On May 12, 2013 9:35 PM, "mobileorg-android" <

Post by mobileorg-android
I know my version of Org-mode is not very up-to-date - I still use
Ubuntu 12.04 and Emacs 23.3.1 shipped with it (and Org-mode from that
Emacs version). I don't think /this/ is the problem, since apparently
the syncing stuff is not very new...

Actually the feature to add a new node under an existing node is recent
(within the last 4-5 months, if memory doesn't fail). This required new
logic for pulling within org mode as well. It is quite likely for
org-mobile-pull to fail with an org version that predates the versions of
MobileOrg released this calendar year.

Post by mobileorg-android
but if it's needed, I'll try to
upgrade (though it might as well be in a few days as in a few weeks -
I'll have to upgrade my OS, probably install a newer Emacs than in
Ubuntu repos and then download and install Org-mode - it's a whole
afternoon's job...)

I found it was not very difficult to clone org's git repository and build
my own.

Post by mobileorg-android
3. As for my problems with the UI: I admit that "terrible" is way too
strong a word, sorry again. But still, there are a few things I
dislike.
- One of them is the capturing/editing distinction: so do I get it
right that /capturing/ just leaves stuff in the "inbox" file
and /editing/ tries to "merge" it in the right place?

Matthew was trying to understand the steps you followed to encounter the
problem, and wanted to clarify whether you were creating a new node or not.
In practice, the distinction is not significant. In the mobile device,
capturing a new node and editing an existing node use the same interface.
In org, when it's working (and in my experience, once it's configured, it
stays working), the distinction is only that new entries under Captures
have no location in existing files where they may be put, so the only way
to handle them is to collect them in one place and let the user copy them.

I find it counterintuitive that pulling considers a new node under an
existing parent to be an "edit" and I wouldn't mind if that behavior
changed. But there may be reasons for it.

Post by mobileorg-android
- This is not exactly UI, but when starting MobileOrg, there is an
animated circle icon, looking as if something was refreshed or
something like that. It won't stop until I press the "Sync" button.

There's already a tracker issue for this.

The other interface concerns strike me, at first glance, as worth
discussing.

hjh

[mobileorg-android]

Dnia 2013-05-12, o godz. 22:24:40

Post by mobileorg-android on behalf of hjh
On May 12, 2013 9:35 PM, "mobileorg-android" <

Post by mobileorg-android
I know my version of Org-mode is not very up-to-date - I still use
Ubuntu 12.04 and Emacs 23.3.1 shipped with it (and Org-mode from
that Emacs version). I don't think /this/ is the problem, since
apparently the syncing stuff is not very new...

Actually the feature to add a new node under an existing node is
recent (within the last 4-5 months, if memory doesn't fail). This
required new logic for pulling within org mode as well. It is quite
likely for org-mobile-pull to fail with an org version that predates
the versions of MobileOrg released this calendar year.

Oh. So once again I was wrong... This basically means that any
reports from me (until I install new Org-mode) are pretty irrelevant.
(Well, excluding the UI stuff;).)

Post by mobileorg-android on behalf of hjh

Post by mobileorg-android
but if it's needed, I'll try to
upgrade (though it might as well be in a few days as in a few weeks
- I'll have to upgrade my OS, probably install a newer Emacs than in
Ubuntu repos and then download and install Org-mode - it's a whole
afternoon's job...)

I found it was not very difficult to clone org's git repository and
build my own.

Well, I am a bit afraid it won't work in Emacs 23. But OTOH - why just
not try? I already have a clone of the repo on my disk. (Though not
today.)

Post by mobileorg-android on behalf of hjh

Post by mobileorg-android
3. As for my problems with the UI: I admit that "terrible" is way
too strong a word, sorry again. But still, there are a few things I
dislike.
- One of them is the capturing/editing distinction: so do I get it
right that /capturing/ just leaves stuff in the "inbox" file
and /editing/ tries to "merge" it in the right place?

Matthew was trying to understand the steps you followed to encounter
the problem, and wanted to clarify whether you were creating a new
node or not. In practice, the distinction is not significant. In the
mobile device, capturing a new node and editing an existing node use
the same interface. In org, when it's working (and in my experience,
once it's configured, it stays working), the distinction is only that
new entries under Captures have no location in existing files where
they may be put, so the only way to handle them is to collect them in
one place and let the user copy them.
I find it counterintuitive that pulling considers a new node under an
existing parent to be an "edit" and I wouldn't mind if that behavior
changed. But there may be reasons for it.

I see.

Post by mobileorg-android on behalf of hjh

Post by mobileorg-android
- This is not exactly UI, but when starting MobileOrg, there is an
animated circle icon, looking as if something was refreshed or
something like that. It won't stop until I press the "Sync" button.

There's already a tracker issue for this.

Glad to hear that I'm not the only one experiencing this.

Post by mobileorg-android on behalf of hjh
The other interface concerns strike me, at first glance, as worth
discussing.

OK, so I hope it's ok if I bump my rep by 10 points.

Post by mobileorg-android on behalf of hjh
hjh

--
Marcin Borkowski
:PROPERTIES:
:experience: 10
:reputation: -90
:level: asshole
:END: